Talk:Safari

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I (Webfork) got this in the mail critical of my Safari writeup:

I think that the Safari write up you pu in the iA Wiki is highly biased toward Mozilla, contains a lot of information that's irrelevant for Safari and at best should be put in the Mozilla write-up and at worst should be discarded completly as its a biased political issues that has no relevance to the current Safari.
(WF)Yep. It is. I wrote it and I'm biased. I try to remove bias when I write stuff on here but there isn't exactly an army of people working on this wiki. It's all at-will.
Here is my reply to that. I didn't want to write it up in the Wiki as its again not related at all to Safari. There is some controversy in the Mozilla community as to why Safari is not based on the much slower Gecko rendering engine. there is no controversy in the Safari or KDE community or the Unix community at large. Safari project leaders, including Don Melton who is still one of Mozilla's main develoeprs and David Hyatt who originated the Chimera browser (the first Gecko based browser for Mac), have chosen KHTML percisely for the reasons that is its far superior to Gecko in exactly the things that are important for building a new leading web browser the Mac - speed, conformance, stability. weighing at about 10% of Gecko, KHTML offers faster and leaner rendering engine with almost the same capabilities as Gecko, with a much nicer API.
That may be the case but until they start working on a cross-platform solution, its all irrelevant. If Safari comes out for Windows, Linux, and Solaris, you'll get my attention. Take Opera: its faster and probably has a nicer API than Mozilla for Windows but I don't use it on Windows, not because it costs me money (it doesn't) but because it doesn't give me the same platform independance. As someone who worked on helpdesk, if I get a call about Mozilla on a Solaris computer, I can help them through the problem using a Windows computer. With Safari I have to go find a Mac. I like cross-platform independance for this and other reasons.
Its important to note that even though most of the Safari development group are Mozilla developers related projects (Nautilus), they chose KHTML on its merits. its unlikely that Safari will ever move to the Gecko rendering engine. one reason is that they already commited a huge ammount of time and energy into the KHTML integration - KHTML improvments, KDE core wrappers, QT porting, etc - one that has to be completly undone in order to change to Gecko. but the more important reason is that fact that the Mozilla project makes no effort to make their rendering engine lighter and faster to compete with KHTML. the decoupling of the mail/news and other frontends from the main browser is nice but its not an improvment for Gecko.
I really like Linus Torvalds for the reason that if something is outside of his scope, he just shrugs. I'm going to shrug here. What you're talking about really doesn't affect me. Speed is something I enjoy nice but really the only slow part I ever experience with Mozilla is in the startup and that's not very noticable on gigahertz or faster computers. Maybe the average user prefers the speed but I prefer the feature-set.
What I'd like to see in the Safari item is a writeup discussing KHTML and why it was chosen as the rendering engine for Safari, and not a discussion on why Mozilla should be chosen, or even on why Mozilla wasn't chosen. and in the "See also" I would like to see "Konqueror"
I think you're more qualified than me to do so but I'll take a crack at it.
for more information on why really KHTML was chosen, please read these article:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=6565
http://www.worldtimzone.com/blog/date/2003/01/07
Oded

A response for a response. I don't indent in place because I think it can get messy quite fast.

Bias: I don't mind if a writeup shows the opinions of the poster - a good writeup is usually done by someones who feels quite strongly for the subject. I just think that in a Safarai writeup if 90% of the post is about Mozilla, then something is wrong. The reason I wrote an email instead of editing the post wiki-style, is that I don't think deleting huge amounts of text should be done by anyone other then the original poster.

Cross-platform: that was never an issue for KDE developers, and while that may be an issue for you - just as speed is not an issue for you, X-platform is not an issue for me. OTOH - everyone are always welcome to port KDE components to their favourite OS, and as Apple have ported KHTML to MacOSX, there are on going efforts to port KDE to run as a native port on MaxOSX, Solaris, FreeBSD and even Windows. some of these ports are in more advanced stage then others (The Solaris port is fully usable, the Windows port has 'libs' and 'base' all done which basibly means you can run Konqueror on MS-Windows). Safari ? I will be very surprised if Apple ever port it to anything other then Mac OSs. They are not in it for the glory, their in it to forward the market of their operating system and hardware. I don't think they will stand much to gain from expanding on that. but Safari is open source and available under a free enough license. Given enough developer interest someone might pick the glove and maybe do a Darwin port or even a Windows port.

Speed: I think speed is important. not rendering speed as that does not differ much between browsers (even the best Safari graphs show something like 20 seconds difference at most on a huge page, which is less then how long I take to read a single paragraph), but responsivness and startup time. Most of the computers I have to play with are not even GHz computer and on my fastest home computer (a Duron 700) Mozilla is so unresponsive and takes a huge amount of time to load that I only fire it up when testing web development stuff.

(Oded)


1st: I appreciate your courtesy in not deleting lots of text but you should feel free to modify something that is incorrect. Part of my pride in this wiki is that we don't have crappy information. If its there - fix it. If I think you're wrong, I'll tell you. If you're not sure, move it to this /Talk section.

2nd: I don't really see a lot of bias nor the entry being 90% about Mozilla, just the last paragraph mentioning the contrivercy. And even there, I can't see anything inaccurate. You may feel free to add and, if something is wrong, please change it. I think it would benefit the iA Wiki and the Safari community if you explained your (or the developers' involved) position of chosing KHTML as you have begun to explain to me.

If you're referring to my recommendations in the Mozilla entry, again, fix any bad info you see.

3rd: I'm well aware Apple's not going to port to other OS's. When some sort of initiative like Mozilla's to create a cross-platform browser using the faster KHTML components, Safari will start looking quite a bit cooler in my eyes. For now? No dice. And for my slowass G4 400 mhz Apple, I still prefer Mozilla for Web development. Its nice to have Safari there for small stuff instead of IE but its not my default browser.

Webfork

As a side note: Mozilla Firefox is great. I switched it to my default browser within about 2 hours of use.
Also, I totally forgot to mention in the above paragraph how I have little to no interest in a closed source web browser no matter who it comes from. Webfork